tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4120372371184097111.post7094753328732062669..comments2023-01-07T21:51:48.750+01:00Comments on Parma-kenta: Philosophizing on Fall of ArthurTroelshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07515711722551393026noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4120372371184097111.post-24353381706125751912013-08-30T19:03:12.150+02:002013-08-30T19:03:12.150+02:00Troels,
I actually do agree with you on the chara...Troels,<br /><br />I actually do agree with you on the character of Guinever -- I do not think that Tolkien was creating a misogynistic picture of the queen. Although I have pointed out some of Guinever's negative characteristics, that alone doesn't qualify her as a negative image of all women. In fact, I think that Tolkien is able to suggest, in very few lines, a complex character for Guinever. One of my favourite moments is when Mordred comes running up the stairs to her bower and stands at her door staring at her with "burning eyes." She returns a proud and challenging look but in her heart she is fearful. When I consider her situation at that moment -- she is completely isolated -- I can feel sympathy for her plight and I can admire her cleverness and bravery in getting herself out of that position. Her political situation is filled with potential dangers, and I think she is aware of that. It's remarkable that Tolkien is able to suggest so much within so few lines. <br /><br />Thanks for raising the other issues as well about the relation of Tolkien's mythology to the Arthurian world. Lots of food for thought! Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4120372371184097111.post-9498799849191997632013-08-18T22:52:01.033+02:002013-08-18T22:52:01.033+02:00Thank you, Damien.
My intention was to use ‘Brito...Thank you, Damien.<br /><br />My intention was to use ‘Briton’ to refer to the Celtic peoples on both sides of the channel, though checking up in Carl Phelpstead's <i>Tolkien and Wales</i> (which is really very excellent!) shows that this usage is medieval – and though I am middle-aged, I can hardly claim to be of the Middle Ages ;-) <br /><br />(On the other hand, Phelpstead notes that Tolkien, in his translation of <i>Sir Orfeo</i> “treats modern English ‘Britain’ and ‘Briton’ as if they could still also mean ‘Brittany’ and ‘Bretons’, as they could in Middle English.” At least I am in good company :-) )Troelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07515711722551393026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4120372371184097111.post-41525163950574878802013-08-18T14:35:24.720+02:002013-08-18T14:35:24.720+02:00Very perceptive review, Troels. I entirely agree w...Very perceptive review, Troels. I entirely agree with you regarding Guinever's treatment in _The Fall of Arthur_. Despite the respect I owe to Renée Vink, I think she is sorely mistaken. One example is not sufficient to demonstrate misogyny, especially when the extant poem is barely the beginning of the work that was to be. And indeed, Guinever demonstrates some qualities, such as courage and determination, despite her flaws.<br /><br />I'd like to correct one point, however: in all versions of Lancelot's stories, he is a Breton, not a Briton. As such, he is one of only two heroes from Brittany in Tolkien's works, the other being Aotrou. Interestingly, both are courageous but sinful men, who later deeply repent (and pay the price for) their mistake.Damienhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14045367662063673890noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4120372371184097111.post-33451298827039370992013-08-17T22:02:16.028+02:002013-08-17T22:02:16.028+02:00Thank you very much, Marcel.
There is surely a l...Thank you very much, Marcel. <br /><br />There is surely a lot to add even to these questions. <br /><br />The connection to the Silmarillion legendarium deserves further thought, though I hope it will it will go beyond fan-fiction speculations about Arthur and Lancelot in Tol Eressëa ... :)<br /><br />There is a lot to say about Tolkien as an alliterative poet, and not least his use of riddling imagery in his writings – akin to inventing new <i>kennings</i> even in his prose. <br /><br />And of course the whole thing about his comments on myth and fairy-tale in that letter has only just started. What was the quality he sought? Why could myth and fairy-tale not explicitly involve the Christian religion? What did he see his Arthurian poem as if he didn't think it was myth or fairy-story? <br /><br />Christopher Tolkien's essay on the poem in the Arthurian tradition is probably not the last to be said on that issue – Kathy Cawley, for instance, has some interesting comments about its place in the modern end of that tradition. <br /><br />This is just off the top of my head – there will be loads of topics to look into that haven't occurred to anyone yet :-)Troelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07515711722551393026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4120372371184097111.post-64432631269288869832013-08-17T21:37:15.557+02:002013-08-17T21:37:15.557+02:00Dear Troels,
once again a very enlightening read...Dear Troels, <br /><br />once again a very enlightening read; I do agree with your reaction respecting some of the more critical voices on FoA and do hope for some high-quality volume on the 'women and the works of Tolkien' - both the author and the topic deserve it. <br /><br />With posts like yours and the discussions by Shippey, Garth, Bratman, Vinke etc. there really isn't much to add :) <br /><br />However, I will try my hand at something from a slightly different angle and do hope it to be published at some time later in the year. Marcel R. Bülleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09537495830521624652noreply@blogger.com